Cryptocurrencies

[satanboy]

Why I will never buy Bitcoin (or any other cryptocurrency) - ABC Everyday

I don't know if Bitcoin is going to rule the world, and I don't want to bet that people will be willing to pay more for bitcoins in future than they do today. So, I'm simply not getting involved.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Spizz]

I'm going to give this topic a rest.

Yep. I hope you still love me though x

 

[Dave]

You’re rabbiting on on some self righteous moral crusade like anyone gives a shit.

How is it a crusade? Moral or otherwise?

I don’t think I’ve told any mug person not to gamble or to stop pretending to be Bernie Madoff, have I? Theres’s a saying about fools and money, but it’s not something I have said...

 

[Dave]

Coins can be backed by currency

Which one is this?

 

[Dave]

Geez David, I've said countless times that crypto trading is = gambling
What don't you understand? Help me help you

I’m not arguing with you on that point. Anyone is entitled to gamble or be careless with their own real money, my only argument is with crypto fans who try and pretend crypto coins are real money and can be compared to national currencies, and therefore can be considered a substitute for those currencies.

You only have to look at the fools who think they’ll be paying for their groceries in a supermarket with Bitcoin sometime soon.

 

[Spizz]

How is it a crusade? Moral or otherwise?

I don’t think I’ve told any mug person not to gamble or to stop pretending to be Bernie Madoff, have I? Theres’s a saying about fools and money, but it’s not something I have said...

Maybe not. But you did chuck in the old electricity trope. And you can’t deny that there is an unpleasant underlying theme to this whole crypto thing with people like you waiting for it to crash so you can say “I told you so”.

Meantime back at the ranch, lots and lots of grown ups who don’t need the advice and condescending tones of the self appointed guardians are plodding along quite happy.

Have some greedy people lost their shirt on crypto? No doubt. Same as many more who have lost their shirt on a horse or a property.

But telling people how to spend their money is a seriously strange hill to die on IMO. The kind of behaviour that reminds of the Android fans who invade Apple threads telling them how bad their choices are. No one cares, enjoy your Android, I’m happy with my choice or I wouldn’t have made it.

 

[Dave]

But you did chuck in the old electricity trope.

Trope? It’s a simple fact.

If you support and care about crypto you don’t really care about the enviroment.

Bitcoin uses more electricity annually than the whole of Argentina, analysis by Cambridge University suggests.
"Mining" for the cryptocurrency is power-hungry, involving heavy computer calculations to verify transactions.
Cambridge researchers say it consumes around 121.36 terawatt-hours (TWh) a year - and is unlikely to fall unless the value of the currency slumps.
Critics say electric-car firm Tesla's decision to invest heavily in Bitcoinundermines its environmental image.

Environmental conundrum​

“Bitcoin is literally anti-efficient,” David Gerard, author of Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain, explained. “So more efficient mining hardware won't help - it'll just be competing against other efficient mining hardware.
“This means that Bitcoin's energy use, and hence its CO2 production, only spirals outwards.
“It’s very bad that all this energy is being literally wasted in a lottery.”

Bitcoin consumes 'more electricity than Argentina'

The rising value of Bitcoin leads to ever-higher energy consumption, researchers say.

www.bbc.co.uk

The amount of electricity used to mine bitcoin “has historically been more than [electricity used by] entire countries, like Ireland”, said Benjamin Jones, a professor of economics at the University of New Mexico who has researched bitcoin’s environmental impact. “We’re talking about multiple terawatts, dozens of terawatts a year of electricity being used just for bitcoin … That’s a lot of electricity.”

Electricity needed to mine bitcoin is more than used by 'entire countries'

Bitcoin mining – the process in which a bitcoin is awarded to a computer that solves a complex series of algorithm – is a deeply energy intensive process

www.theguardian.com

According to the University of Cambridge’s bitcoin electricity consumption index, bitcoin miners are expected to consume roughly 130 Terawatt-hours of energy (TWh), which is roughly 0.6% of global electricity consumption. This puts the bitcoin economy on par with the carbon dioxide emissions of a small, developing nation like Sri Lanka or Jordan.

The debate about cryptocurrency and energy consumption | TechCrunch

Energy consumption has become the latest flashpoint for cryptocurrency. Critics decry it as an energy hog while proponents hail it for being less

techcrunch.com

 

[bigAl-sa]

To be fair, it seems like you are. Small amounts have turned into large amounts for lots of people.

Typical pyramid scheme?

 

[bigAl-sa]

Coins are not all created equal. Coins can be backed by currency, some by commodities, some by real use projects, and others nothing. It all depends if you want to risk from very high to very low.

I still want to know wtf is a coin.

 

[SauRoN]

You better let @Spizz and @LD50 know they aren't gambling after all.

And you ignored my edit.

They as individuals can certainly be gambling. It doesn’t mean the industry is that of gambling.

Many people gamble on the stock markets every single day. Are they also a scam?


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[SauRoN]

@SauRoN is wrong. You can have the best indicators and the best tools, you are still making a judgement call on which way things will go and then still get it wrong. So maybe gambling is too strong of a word but it's not an exact science either. That it's fun is for damn sure

You are forgetting that not everyone is buying and selling.

Many are just buying and holding.

That’s not gambling or speculation.

And then some of us are actually saving on top of the holding as well.

You as an individual can certainly be gambling.

Also beyond this you are only talking about the exchanges and forgetting the entire rest of the industry that exists around crypto.

****

But in the pure context of exchange trading yes gambling is the wrong word because we aren’t talking about a game here where the house wins and the randomness is forced and controlled.

The randomness is genuinely random and while people can get it wrong it’s not the same case as gambling where it’s literally pre-calculated how many can win and lose and you aren’t just trying you luck.

Essentially it’s not luck based like gambling.

And on a longer term view none of that really applies.


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[SauRoN]

Trope? It’s a simple fact.

If you support and care about crypto you don’t really care about the enviroment.


View attachment 12835

Environmental conundrum​

“Bitcoin is literally anti-efficient,” David Gerard, author of Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain, explained. “So more efficient mining hardware won't help - it'll just be competing against other efficient mining hardware.
“This means that Bitcoin's energy use, and hence its CO2 production, only spirals outwards.
“It’s very bad that all this energy is being literally wasted in a lottery.”

Bitcoin consumes 'more electricity than Argentina'

The rising value of Bitcoin leads to ever-higher energy consumption, researchers say.

www.bbc.co.uk

The amount of electricity used to mine bitcoin “has historically been more than [electricity used by] entire countries, like Ireland”, said Benjamin Jones, a professor of economics at the University of New Mexico who has researched bitcoin’s environmental impact. “We’re talking about multiple terawatts, dozens of terawatts a year of electricity being used just for bitcoin … That’s a lot of electricity.”

Electricity needed to mine bitcoin is more than used by 'entire countries'

Bitcoin mining – the process in which a bitcoin is awarded to a computer that solves a complex series of algorithm – is a deeply energy intensive process

www.theguardian.com

According to the University of Cambridge’s bitcoin electricity consumption index, bitcoin miners are expected to consume roughly 130 Terawatt-hours of energy (TWh), which is roughly 0.6% of global electricity consumption. This puts the bitcoin economy on par with the carbon dioxide emissions of a small, developing nation like Sri Lanka or Jordan.

The debate about cryptocurrency and energy consumption | TechCrunch

Energy consumption has become the latest flashpoint for cryptocurrency. Critics decry it as an energy hog while proponents hail it for being less

techcrunch.com

Amount of electricity used <> bad for the environment.

Massive chunks are of that Bitcoin (and other cryptos) are being mined with completely sustainable and self sustaining energy sources.

To say something is automatically bad because it uses a lot of power is silly.

Do you think normal banks don’t have environmental impacts? What about all the trees murdered for cash money which crypto doesn’t have at all?

It’s a silly argument.

Besides, once it’s mined that energy consumption will drop off drastically so it’s a pretty short-term concern.


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[SauRoN]

I think the underlying problem with biometrics and probably where a large part of the ignorance stems from is that there have been a great many actual scams using crypto as the “carrot” which brings a whole lot of doubt over the industry as a whole.

It’s getting less and less with big corporate investments adding legitimacy to the industry, but it will hang around for a long time for those who got burnt or know someone who was.

The entire MTI and it’s ilk comes to mind, but there’s also the phishing stuff like the fake Luno account sms’s and such they are shotgunning hoping for someone to bite.


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[bigAl-sa]

You are forgetting that not everyone is buying and selling.

Many are just buying and holding.

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But what are they actually buying?

 

[bigAl-sa]

But what are they actually buying?

I am not being facetious here, I really do want to know.

The miners are doing something, and gaining something, and then selling this something, but what.

Without knowing more about this "something" we are looking at a massive pyramid scheme

 

[SauRoN]

But what are they actually buying?

A store of value.

The value being inherent to others partaking and buying into it.

When you sell your Rands to buy USD? What are you buying? Same thing really. Someone declared that the USD is worth X and you are buying it for that value.


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[SauRoN]

I am not being facetious here, I really do want to know.

The miners are doing something, and gaining something, and then selling this something, but what.

Without knowing more about this "something" we are looking at a massive pyramid scheme

There is no pyramid scheme.

Just because something is digital doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Then your bank balance with your bank is equally non-existent.

A pyramid scheme literally has no product, it’s based on people selling the ability to sell nothing to other people for a fee and making commission on that sale of nothing.

Crypto has no affiliate program selling vapourware. You are literally buying a chunk of it not much different to buying Gold or Money or Groceries only difference being that it’s digital. Or course unlike the Gold or Money or Groceries everyone on the network knows that you now own that piece of it and therefore you can’t simply be ripped off and it can’t just disappear like if your bank pulled a vast one on you.




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[bigAl-sa]

A store of value.

Which still says nothing. To give it value, and be able to use it, you have to convert it back to $$

 

[SauRoN]

Which still says nothing. To give it value, and be able to use it, you have to convert it back to $$

It doesn’t work (very well) as a currency at present, well not Bitcoin but others are much better at it.

But do you need to convert USD to Gold to be able to use it? No, it’s transparent as a store of value.

Store of value <> currency as a bartering mechanism aren’t necessarily the same.

I do agree crypto doesn’t work too well as a currency (for barter) at present for all it’s various reasons, but that will come in time with adoption.

Things like USDC exist for that future, but I guess that must also be a scam?


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[bigAl-sa]

There is no pyramid scheme.

Just because something is digital doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Then your bank balance with your bank is equally non-existent.

A pyramid scheme literally has no product, it’s based on people selling the ability to sell nothing to other people for a fee and making commission on that sale of nothing.

Crypto has no affiliate program selling vapourware. You are literally buying a chunk of it not much different to buying Gold or Money or Groceries only difference being that it’s digital. Or course unlike the Gold or Money or Groceries everyone on the network knows that you now own that piece of it and therefore you can’t simply be ripped off and it can’t just disappear like if your bank pulled a vast one on you.




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No, but what am I buying? Crypto is not selling vapourware, it IS vapourware.

If the Internet crashes, I can still go to my bank and draw bits of paper which will be accepted by a merchant. Crypto will be gone.