Octopus And Squid Evolution Is Officially Stranger Than We Could Have Ever Imagined

scudsucker

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Ah so you're still a youngin, gotcha! Yeah maybe when you grow a little older you'll mellow a bit and that arrogant attitude of knowing everything and always being right will subside a little. Good luck.
Great that we got that sorted. Are you going to show evidence for these suggestions you made:

Intelligent Design
Evolution is a religion
Atheism is a religion

While you avoid answering that, why don't you spend a few minutes with Hosea 4:6 ? (K.J.V.)
 
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SoldierMan

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Great that we got that sorted. Are you going to show evidence for these suggestions you made:

Intelligent Design
Evolution is a religion
Atheism is a religion

While you avoid answering that, why don't you spend a few minutes with Hosea 4:6 ? (K.J.V.)

Comprehension of the English language, spend a few minutes with that.
 
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SoldierMan

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no, I want to understand the idea of atheism as a religion. Are you now saying you can't explain that?

I've answered this question twice now, doing it for as third time is pretty pointless. Either you understand what I have written or you don't, or you choose not to.
 

SoldierMan

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You definitely need Romans 5:3-4
Expecting others to do your work for them is a sign of being young. Wiser people know you have to do your own work.

Here's a portion of a piece on evolution as a religion.


Certainly, historically, that if you look at, say, evolutionary theory, and of course this was brought out I think rather nicely by the talk just before me, it's certainly been the case that evolution has functioned, if not as a religion as such, certainly with elements akin to a secular religion. Those of us who teach philosophy of religion always say there's no way of defining religion by a neat, necessary and sufficient condition. The best that you can do is list a number of characteristics, some of which all religions have, and none of which any religion, whatever or however you sort of put it. And certainly, there's no doubt about it, that in the past, and I think also in the present, for many evolutionists, evolution has functioned as something with elements which are, let us say, akin to being a secular religion.

I think, for instance, of the most famous family in the history of evolution, namely, the Huxleys. I think of Thomas Henry Huxley, the grandfather, and of Julian Huxley, the grandson. Certainly, if you read Thomas Henry Huxley, when he's in full flight, there's no question but that for Huxley at some very important level, evolution and science generally, but certainly evolution in particular, is functioning a bit as a kind of secular religion. Interestingly, Huxley -- and I've gone through his own lectures, I've gone through two complete sets of lecture notes that Huxley gave to his students -- Huxley never talked about evolution when he was actually teaching. He kept evolution for affairs like this, and when he was talking at a much more popular sort of level. Certainly, though, as I say, for Thomas Henry Huxley, I don't think there's any question but that evolution functioned, at a level, as a kind of secular religion.

And there's no question whatsoever that for Julian Huxley, when you read Evolution, the Modern Synthesis, that Julian Huxley saw evolution as a kind of progressive thing upwards. I think Julian Huxley was certainly an atheist, but he was at the same time a kind of neo-vitalist, and he bound this up with his science. If you look both at his printed stuff, and if you go down to Rice University which has got all his private papers, again and again in the letters, it comes through very strongly that for Julian Huxley evolution was functioning as a kind of secular religion.

I think that this -- and I'm not saying this now particularly in a critical sense, I'm just saying this in a matter-of-fact sense -- I think that today also, for more than one eminent evolutionist, evolution in a way functions as a kind of secular religion. And let me just mention my friend Edward O. Wilson. Certainly, I think that if you look at some of the stuff which caused some much controversy in the 1970s, what is interesting is not so much the fact that Wilson was talking about trying to include humans in the evolutionary scenario. Everybody was doing that. It was not so much even the fact that he was using what is now called sexist language, like "Man," because I went to look at Richard Lewontin's book, which he published the year before Wilson, and in the index it says "Homo sapiens, see 'Man'" -- so, I mean, we were all committing that sort of mistake, as it is now judged. But certainly, if you look for instance in On Human Nature, Wilson is quite categorical about wanting to see evolution as the new myth, and all sorts of language like this. That for him, at some level, it's functioning as a kind of metaphysical system.

So, as I say, historically I think, however we're going to deal with creationism, or new creationism, or these sorts of things, whether you think that this is -- that what I've just been saying means that we'd better put our house in order, or whatever -- I think at least we must recognize the historical facts. I think also, and I am going to speak very, very briefly, because time is so short, is I think that we should also look at evolution and science, in particular, biology, generally philosophically I think a lot more critically -- and I don't say negatively, please understand that -- I think a lot more critically than we were doing ten years ago. Sensitized, I say, by the work of the social constructivists and others, historians, sociologists, and these sorts of people.
And it seems to me very clear that at some very basic level, evolution as a scientific theory makes a commitment to a kind of naturalism, namely, that at some level one is going to exclude miracles and these sorts of things, come what may. Now, you might say, does this mean it's just a religious assumption, does this mean it's irrational to do something like this. I would argue very strongly that it's not. At a certain pragmatic level, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And that if certain things do work, you keep going with this, and that you don't change in midstream, and so on and so forth. I think that one can in fact defend a scientific and naturalistic approach, even if one recognizes that this does include a metaphysical assumption to the regularity of nature, or something of this nature.

So as I say, I think that one can defend it as reasonable, but I don't think it helps matter by denying that one is making it. And I think that once one has made such an assumption, one has perfect powers to turn to, say, creation science, which claims to be naturalistic also, and point out that it's wrong. I think one has every right to show that evolutionary theory in various forms certainly seems to be the most reasonable position, once one has taken a naturalistic position. So I'm not coming here and saying, give up evolution, or anything like that.

But I am coming here and saying, I think that philosophically that one should be sensitive to what I think history shows, namely, that evolution, just as much as religion -- or at least, leave "just as much," let me leave that phrase -- evolution, akin to religion, involves making certain a priori or metaphysical assumptions, which at some level cannot be proven empirically. I guess we all knew that, but I think that we're all much more sensitive to these facts now. And I think that the way to deal with creationism, but the way to deal with evolution also, is not to deny these facts, but to recognize them, and to see where we can go, as we move on from there.

Well, I've been very short, but that was my message, and I think it's an important one.
 
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scudsucker

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Here's a portion of a piece on evolution as a religion.
So you have one guy - the same guy you quoted earlier - who says he thinks some people treat evolution as a matter of faith.

You got any actual proof that evolution is a religion beyond this random guy's opinion?

And I note, he does not say that evolution IS a religion, just that belief is evolution in certain circumstances is akin to religion.

So, not the damning proof you were hoping it was. Sorry. You are also yet to provide anything demonstrating that atheism is a religion.

Jeremiah 8:4 may console you.
 
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SoldierMan

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So you have one guy - the same guy you quoted earlier - who says he thinks some people treat evolution as a matter of faith.

You got any actual proof that evolution is a religion beyond this random guy's opinion?

And I note, he does not say that evolution IS a religion, just that belief is evolution in certain circumstances is akin to religion.

So, not the damning proof you were hoping it was. Sorry.

Jeremiah 8:4 may console you.

Do you even read what I post, or does your brain just filter out anything that conflicts with your paradigm.

I posted this a while back, and evolution's very founder himself admits to evolution being a religion for some. But I'm guessing that that won't be enough for you either, nothing will. And he is not some random guy, he is one of the personalities in the field of evolution that people look up to. You are some random guy, he is not. That is like saying PZ Myres is some random guy, it's just not true, but I would expect nothing less from you.

Listen to the amazing words of Charles Darwin, whom many consider the "father" of evolution: "I was a young man with unformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions wondering over all the time over everything and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion out of them." Charles Darwin admitted that his wonderings and suggestions became a religion.

LOL There is no absolute truth that evolution is a religion for some. It is something that has been recognised by some evolutionists and some who are not evolutionists. You are attempting to win an argument, I am having a discussion. You are stuck in your I am right/everything about evolution is good and nothing bad can be said about it.
 
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Sinbad

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Do you even read what I post, or does your brain just filter out anything that conflicts with your paradigm.

I posted this a while back, and evolution's very founder himself admits to evolution being a religion for some. But I'm guessing that that won't be enough for you either, nothing will. And he is not some random guy, he is one of the personalities in the field of evolution that people look up to. You are some random guy, he is not. That is like saying PZ Myres is some random guy, it's just not true, but I would expect nothing less from you.
By your logic, your trumpism is a religion too.
 
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scudsucker

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But I'm guessing that that won't be enough for you either, nothing will.
Let me give you an example, SoldierBoy.

I can prove that there is a religion called Christianity. How can I prove this?

I can locate a number of pieces of evidence. In just my suburb there are a number of churches, which is a building in which the followers of the religion of Christianity like to practice their religion. I can visit these and observe the followers of the religion of Christianity at their business. I can talk to the followers of the religion of Christianity to find out if their belief system is in fact a religion.

Each one is run by a priest, who is the local expert on the religion of Christianity.

I can visit this priest and ascertain that he practices the religion of Christianity. I can read the instruction manual that he keeps which shows how to be a follower of the religion of Christianity. If I have further questions I can approach the hierarchy of the religion of Christianity.

If you are unwilling to take my word for the existence of the religion of Christianity I can show you numerous websites, books, scholarly articles etc referencing the religion of Christianity.

You see, the religion of Christianity is a thing that exists and can be shown to exist.

Can you show the same for the "religion" of evolution?
 

Dave

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Do you even read what I post, or does your brain just filter out anything that conflicts with your paradigm.

I posted this a while back, and evolution's very founder himself admits to evolution being a religion for some. But I'm guessing that that won't be enough for you either, nothing will. And he is not some random guy, he is one of the personalities in the field of evolution that people look up to. You are some random guy, he is not. That is like saying PZ Myres is some random guy, it's just not true, but I would expect nothing less from you.



LOL There is no absolute truth that evolution is a religion for some. It is something that has been recognised by some evolutionists and some who are not evolutionists. You are attempting to win an argument, I am having a discussion. You are stuck in your I am right/everything about evolution is good and nothing bad can be said about it.

Do you have a link to when Charles Darwin said that? I don't seem to be able to find it on the Darwin Project website...

As an example, here are the references I've checked through;

Barlow, Nora, ed. 1958. The autobiography of Charles Darwin (London: Collins).
Barrett, Paul H. et al ed. 1987. Charles Darwin’s notebooks, 1836–1844. Geology, transmutation of species, metaphysical enquiries(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press for the British Museum (Natural History)).
Boole, Mary Everest. Author of works on science education and spiritualism.
Cobbe, Frances Power. Author of works on moral and religious subjects, campaigner for women’s rights.
Darwin, Charles. 1868. Variation of animals and plants under domestication (London: John Murray).
Darwin, Charles. 1871. Descent of man and selection in relation to sex (London: John Murray)
Darwin, Erasmus. Charles Darwin’s elder brother.
Fordyce, John. 1883. Aspects of scepticism: with special reference to the present time (London: Elliot Stock).
Haeckel, Ernst. German zoologist.
Heathorn, Henrietta. Married Thomas Huxley in 1855.
Huxley, Thomas Henry. Zoologist.
Huxley, T. H., “Darwin on the Origin of Species”, The Times, 26 December 1859.
Keynes, Randall. 2001. Annie’s box: Charles Darwin, his daughter, and human evolution (London: Fourth Estate).
Kingsley, Charles. Anglican clergyman.
Martineau, James. Unitarian clergyman and religious writer.
Newman, Francis, 1850. Phases of faith; or, passages from the history of my creed (London: Chapman).
Norton, Andrews. 1837-44. Evidence of the genuineness of the gospels (Boston)
Tayler, John James. Unitarian clergyman and religious writer.
Wallace, Alfred Russel. Naturalist.
Wedgwood, Josiah. Master potter and grandfather of Charles Darwin and of Emma Wedgwood.
Wedgwood, Frances (Fanny). Married Hensleigh Wedgwood in 1832.
Wedgwood, Hensleigh. Emma Darwin’s brother.
 

SoldierMan

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Let me give you an example, SoldierBoy.

I can prove that there is a religion called Christianity. How can I prove this?

I can locate a number of pieces of evidence. In just my suburb there are a number of churches, which is a building in which the followers of the religion of Christianity like to practice their religion. I can visit these and observe the followers of the religion of Christianity at their business. I can talk to the followers of the religion of Christianity to find out if their belief system is in fact a religion.

Each one is run by a priest, who is the local expert on the religion of Christianity.

I can visit this priest and ascertain that he practices the religion of Christianity. I can read the instruction manual that he keeps which shows how to be a follower of the religion of Christianity. If I have further questions I can approach the hierarchy of the religion of Christianity.

If you are unwilling to take my word for the existence of the religion of Christianity I can show you numerous websites, books, scholarly articles etc referencing the religion of Christianity.

You see, the religion of Christianity is a thing that exists and can be shown to exist.

Can you show the same for the "religion" of evolution?

LOL You just don't get it. A prominent figure in the evolutionary world admits that it is a religion for him and others but even that is not good enough for you. If you asked him if it was he would say yes. He had the guts to admit it. Of course it is not like a traditional religion but for all intents and purposes for some it is. There are no churches of evolution (although I'm sure there are many places setup to honour Darwin, so I guess that could count) but there are the figureheads of evolution like Dawkins and Darwin. Statues are erected of Darwin, and people follow the figureheads with a level of fundamentalism seen mainly in religions.

But like I said even though you have a figurehead admitting as much it is still not enough for you, nothing ever will be for someone like you.
 
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scudsucker

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A prominent figure in the evolutionary world admits that it is a religion for him and others but even that is not good enough for you.
A philosopher who is interested in both religion and evolution has stated that some people's belief in evolution is "akin" to religion.

He is not "admitting" anything; he is not claiming that he himself is a follower of this religion of evolution.
If you asked him if it was he would say yes. He had the guts to admit it.
He would say, "what nonsense" and he'd be right.
Of course it is not like a traditional religion but for all intents and purposes for some it is.
Let's just stop at "it is not like a traditional religion" because, yanno, it is not a religion.
There are no churches of evolution but there are the figureheads of evolution like Dawkins and Darwin. Statues are errected of Darwin, and people follow the figureheads with a level of fundamentalism seen mainly in religions.
There are statues of chickens. Does that mean people follow the religion of chickens?

So your argument for the existence of the religion of evolution is that someone said that belief in evolution "is akin" to religion.

The end.*


(* Well, that and an unsourced quote from someone who says that Darwin said something, but without citing who, nor when or where)





Very firm footing there, SoldierBoy.
 
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Dave

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LOL You just don't get it. A prominent figure in the evolutionary world admits that it is a religion for him and others but even that is not good enough for you. If you asked him if it was he would say yes. He had the guts to admit it. Of course it is not like a traditional religion but for all intents and purposes for some it is. There are no churches of evolution (although I'm sure there are many places setup to honour Darwin, so I guess that could count) but there are the figureheads of evolution like Dawkins and Darwin. Statues are erected of Darwin, and people follow the figureheads with a level of fundamentalism seen mainly in religions.

But like I said even though you have a figurehead admitting as much it is still not enough for you, nothing ever will be for someone like you.

You really are talking nonsense now. How you manage to extrapolate there being statues to something makes it a religion is really nonsensical.
 

scudsucker

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Now that you have run out of steam on the subject of the religion of evolution @SoldierMan shall we move onto your second fallacious claim, that atheism is also a religion?

Surely you have some statues of the figureheads of atheism to prove it?
 

Dave

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Now that you have run out of steam on the subject of the religion of evolution @SoldierMan shall we move onto your second fallacious claim, that atheism is also a religion?

Surely you have some statues of the figureheads of atheism to prove it?

To be honest, I asked for evidence of that so long ago I'd actually forgotten I asked.
 

scudsucker

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To be honest, I asked for evidence of that so long ago I'd actually forgotten I asked.
I'm sure SoldierBoy wishes it had been forgotten, and the same about his "Intelligent Design" drive-by shit-post.
 
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