Over 18 (was 35, 50) in SA? Register for vaccination NOW!

Jings

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
6,092
Location
Gauteng
In this case, no.
Well it's different for me. My body reacted worse than the "flu" I had last year.
When the feeling that something was pinching my insides and hands started tingling I knew to take some aspirin. Only because I found out that Pfizer contains the spike protein from the outer surface of the virus.
Still getting headaches every other day and feeling tired but better than the symptoms on the weekend.
Without researching the risks I definitely would have panicked.
 

mikewazar

Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2021
Messages
49
Location
Gauteng
Well it's different for me. My body reacted worse than the "flu" I had last year.
When the feeling that something was pinching my insides and hands started tingling I knew to take some aspirin. Only because I found out that Pfizer contains the spike protein from the outer surface of the virus.
Still getting headaches every other day and feeling tired but better than the symptoms on the weekend.
Soz bru u just in the 1% lol take the L and move on
 

Spizz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Messages
2,742
Location
Her*anus
Well it's different for me. My body reacted worse than the "flu" I had last year.
When the feeling that something was pinching my insides and hands started tingling I knew to take some aspirin. Only because I found out that Pfizer contains the spike protein from the outer surface of the virus.
Still getting headaches every other day and feeling tired but better than the symptoms on the weekend.
Without researching the risks I definitely would have panicked.

It's a minefield of misinformation out there, it's pointless trying to find out what is right or wrong. Take the advice, get vaccinated and take boosters if required. It's the only way. And if you want proof, look at the countries opening up such as the UK and Netherlands and their falling death rates.
 

Jings

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
6,092
Location
Gauteng
It's a minefield of misinformation out there, it's pointless trying to find out what is right or wrong. Take the advice, get vaccinated and take boosters if required. It's the only way. And if you want proof, look at the countries opening up such as the UK and Netherlands and their falling death rates.

It's not pointless if you check the facts and prepare yourself accordingly post vaccination, as an individual. For example, women have been reporting worse side effects than men.


One thing is for certain, the facts demonstrate as a whole that the benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the risks.
 

Spizz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Messages
2,742
Location
Her*anus
Municipality. Housemate drove past and saw an orderly queue of about 20 people recently. Don't know about inside. But in any case I'd rather queue outdoors.

Yep. Sounds sensible. I was wondering though if this week is going to be packed as it is 6 weeks after the big queues we stood in.
 

biometrics

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2019
Messages
20,336
Yep. Sounds sensible. I was wondering though if this week is going to be packed as it is 6 weeks after the big queues we stood in.
Was a three hour drive and nearly three hour queue last time. And demand is down. Think it will be fine here.
 

Paul Hjul

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
483
In medical terms it was really fast, such that WHO had to approve for emergency use so that countries could expedite their own regulatory approvals. And unprecedented event in our global history. Scientifically, SARS-Cov-2 did not exist prior to 2019.

Fact is people have died as a result of the vaccine, even though the risk is minimal holistically. I'm not going to diminish the sacrifice they have made for themselves and their family in their aim to be safe from detrimental effects of covid. If there were sufficient time to research and test, the rare effects of blood clots would possibly have been prevented.

That's not necessarily true. While it is true that (a) there has been rare cases of blood clotting related to the Janssen vaccine; (b) this side effect was not identified as a concern in the trial stage; (c) had more information been known about the mechanism of operation of the adverse effect it would have been better treated, there simply is no basis to presume that additional time would have produced the information.

Arguendo the blood clotting and associated injury and fatality is a result of it not having been identified in the trials up until that point and associated precautions and treatment protocols were lacking it simply does not follow that more trials or more importantly a delayed rollout would have strengthened the knowledge base. I cannot conceive of a responsible experiment size (in terms of a number of participants) which would have included enough people to have identified the actual issue - you might have with 5 times the size phase 3 trial have gotten an idea of the existence of a possible adverse response but you'd still be wholly in the dark about what actually matters. If the Janssen vaccine was released in the 70s they'd still be figuring out how to speed up the fax machine to get the reports shared. Old methodologies to provide assurances have defects and predate our ability to share and process data as we can today.

In actual fact if it were not for the fact that the vaccinations are being administered with the monitoring in place ordinary(old school) pharmacological surveillance might have taken months or years to identify what we have learnt about the interaction in days. I can guarantee you that pharmacological products released even 10 years ago would not have seen as quick a stop of utilization while getting a clearer idea than what we saw both with Janssen on blood clotting in those countries where safety is paramount and on the Oxford vaccine as against the Beta variant. We will always learn more about medicine if we apply proper monitoring and methodology. We are still learning today about adverse interactions Asprin has - an FDA directive on packaging was issued last year - especially at particular dosages and in particular combinations for particular patients.

Basically even if the vaccination rollout had been done at a later stage the prospects of the clotting issue having been identified only at rollout is greater than the chance of the problem being understood earlier. If anything the approach done under which during trial phases enhanced collection mechanisms were brought into effect meant few injuries than would have arisen if older methodologies - in which delayed coming to market happens but there is less data sharing and processing.

Don't misunderstand me, there is a LOT of room to improve the way in which pharmacological products - including vaccines - are developed, rolled out and monitored. Most of this room for improvement relates to having fuller data sets and using the magnificent computational power that has been built. There is plenty of room for modelling and simulations. However the simple reality is that no vaccination effort before Covid19 has used the tools and scope of data which has gone into making the vaccines used for Covid19 vaccines which are being administered in functional states the safest novel vaccines for a novel virus ever. The next set of vaccines for the next pandemic producing pathogen will be better - at least it had better be - because as a species we should be better equipped. It is tragic that there are vaccine related injuries - but the biggest cause and risk of vaccine injury remains faulty administration of the vaccine - a doctor cocking up the jab, if possible you want a nursing sister with years experience at jabbing, if you find yourself in an environment where there is a doctor and a senior nurse who has been administering vaccines for years send the doctor to fetch the nurse coffee.
 

Jings

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
6,092
Location
Gauteng
That's not necessarily true. While it is true that (a) there has been rare cases of blood clotting related to the Janssen vaccine; (b) this side effect was not identified as a concern in the trial stage; (c) had more information been known about the mechanism of operation of the adverse effect it would have been better treated, there simply is no basis to presume that additional time would have produced the information.

Arguendo the blood clotting and associated injury and fatality is a result of it not having been identified in the trials up until that point and associated precautions and treatment protocols were lacking it simply does not follow that more trials or more importantly a delayed rollout would have strengthened the knowledge base. I cannot conceive of a responsible experiment size (in terms of a number of participants) which would have included enough people to have identified the actual issue - you might have with 5 times the size phase 3 trial have gotten an idea of the existence of a possible adverse response but you'd still be wholly in the dark about what actually matters. If the Janssen vaccine was released in the 70s they'd still be figuring out how to speed up the fax machine to get the reports shared. Old methodologies to provide assurances have defects and predate our ability to share and process data as we can today.

In actual fact if it were not for the fact that the vaccinations are being administered with the monitoring in place ordinary(old school) pharmacological surveillance might have taken months or years to identify what we have learnt about the interaction in days. I can guarantee you that pharmacological products released even 10 years ago would not have seen as quick a stop of utilization while getting a clearer idea than what we saw both with Janssen on blood clotting in those countries where safety is paramount and on the Oxford vaccine as against the Beta variant. We will always learn more about medicine if we apply proper monitoring and methodology. We are still learning today about adverse interactions Asprin has - an FDA directive on packaging was issued last year - especially at particular dosages and in particular combinations for particular patients.

Basically even if the vaccination rollout had been done at a later stage the prospects of the clotting issue having been identified only at rollout is greater than the chance of the problem being understood earlier. If anything the approach done under which during trial phases enhanced collection mechanisms were brought into effect meant few injuries than would have arisen if older methodologies - in which delayed coming to market happens but there is less data sharing and processing.

Don't misunderstand me, there is a LOT of room to improve the way in which pharmacological products - including vaccines - are developed, rolled out and monitored. Most of this room for improvement relates to having fuller data sets and using the magnificent computational power that has been built. There is plenty of room for modelling and simulations. However the simple reality is that no vaccination effort before Covid19 has used the tools and scope of data which has gone into making the vaccines used for Covid19 vaccines which are being administered in functional states the safest novel vaccines for a novel virus ever. The next set of vaccines for the next pandemic producing pathogen will be better - at least it had better be - because as a species we should be better equipped. It is tragic that there are vaccine related injuries - but the biggest cause and risk of vaccine injury remains faulty administration of the vaccine - a doctor cocking up the jab, if possible you want a nursing sister with years experience at jabbing, if you find yourself in an environment where there is a doctor and a senior nurse who has been administering vaccines for years send the doctor to fetch the nurse coffee.
In conclusion you you're saying the same thing I did, that the benefits outweigh the risk.

Let's not limit the risks to J&J vaccine though as Pfizer and Astra-Zeneca also carry blood clot risk.

 

Johnatan56

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,532
Location
Vienna
In conclusion you you're saying the same thing I did, that the benefits outweigh the risk.

Let's not limit the risks to J&J vaccine though as Pfizer and Astra-Zeneca also carry blood clot risk.

They had 80/220k vs 60/220k normal population rate, and that normal population rate includes kids which aren't vaccinated.
There's a reason that study is still pre-print, I am doubtful of it being published, and it has issues in regards to rate in population vs rate in vaccine as e.g. VITT (vaccine induced TTS (blood clots basically)) as you're talking about hundreds of thousands to millions of people. In covid it can be observed because you're talking about an 8/9x increase vs normal, if vs vaccine where it's 1.3x based on their study, you could just have a bad population group at those probability figures. That 1.3x is a 1.07 CI, that's not enough to link imho.
 

Paul Hjul

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
483
The study doesn't actually help any discussion about trial methodology and rollout timeline.

But no I am not saying the same thing. You have argued that bringing the vaccine to market quickly has increased risk. This is simply wrong.
 

Jings

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
6,092
Location
Gauteng
The study doesn't actually help any discussion about trial methodology and rollout timeline.

But no I am not saying the same thing. You have argued that bringing the vaccine to market quickly has increased risk. This is simply wrong.
I'm saying people need to study the research and vaccination report backs to mitigate their own risk post vaccination.
 
Top