Explosion at Medupi power station.

[Dave]

An explosion at a coal plant is one thing, an explosion at a nuclear plant quite another.

When everyone glows in the dark you don’t need streetlights

 

[biometrics]

and just think the morons want to build a pebble bed reactor at Thyspunt for which there is no reliable backup power supply available to the plant because Eskom refused to undertake transmission capability upgrades.

An explosion at a coal plant is one thing, an explosion at a nuclear plant quite another.

Pebble bed? I think you are wrong.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Steam is steam. Power is still generated the old way.

ja but there are still different custom parts for different manufacturing line ups.

IIRC the big problem with Koeberg parts is that we partnered with the French in a way to bust arms and related sanction embargos resulting in some big stupidities in the supply chain. Framatome to the best of my knowledge don't even have any engineers in SA. Koeberg and the neighbouring Duynefontein sites could be reasonably sensible nuclear operations if run by somebody with a smidge more competence than Eskom and frankly with a very interconnected set of insurance and deposit criteria.

 

[biometrics]

ja but there are still different custom parts for different manufacturing line ups.

IIRC the big problem with Koeberg parts is that we partnered with the French in a way to bust arms and related sanction embargos resulting in some big stupidities in the supply chain. Framatome to the best of my knowledge don't even have any engineers in SA. Koeberg and the neighbouring Duynefontein sites could be reasonably sensible nuclear operations if run by somebody with a smidge more competence than Eskom and frankly with a very interconnected set of insurance and deposit criteria.

The steam based power generation part is ancient tech though, still used everywhere.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Pebble bed? I think you are wrong.

Pebble beds have a lower risk of catastrophic meltdown, the requirement for external cooling doesn't go away though. My baby brother will be digging up the literature for me but our hunch is that pebble beds have a HIGHER external electricity supply requirement. Planning to walk in with the drafted interdict papers against Eskom proceeding until they can meet the external power reliability specifications.

 

[biometrics]

Pebble beds have a lower risk of catastrophic meltdown, the requirement for external cooling doesn't go away though. My baby brother will be digging up the literature for me but our hunch is that pebble beds have a HIGHER external electricity supply requirement. Planning to walk in with the drafted interdict papers against Eskom proceeding until they can meet the external power reliability specifications.

SA spent billions on pebble bed research and eventually abondoned it. That power station will be conventional nuclear, not experimental. In any case they are more likely to build it at Koeberg sadly (I lived there for more than a decade and plan on getting a holiday flat there next year.)

 

[Paul Hjul]

The steam based power generation part is ancient tech though, still used everywhere.

yes but that is not the reason why part problems arise. Westinghouse and General Electric made their boiler parts incompatible back when both companies where around. Problems of parts being different by fractions of an inch are a problem. So even if the bolt that is damaged is one that is in a dozen power plants of Eskom's fleet, Koeberg was built differently so it uses a different part. The parts for Koeberg have to be sourced from a different supply stack.

 

[biometrics]

yes but that is not the reason why part problems arise. Westinghouse and General Electric made their boiler parts incompatible back when both companies where around. Problems of parts being different by fractions of an inch are a problem. So even if the bolt that is damaged is one that is in a dozen power plants of Eskom's fleet, Koeberg was built differently so it uses a different part. The parts for Koeberg have to be sourced from a different supply stack.

The bolt was dropped into the generator and when it was switched on caused it to be badly damaged. The fucking thing had to be replaced. Iirc it was custom made which took ages.

 

[Paul Hjul]

SA spent billions on pebble bed research and eventually abondoned it. That power station will be conventional nuclear, not experimental. In any case they are more likely to build it at Koeberg sadly (I lived there for more than a decade and plan on getting a holiday flat there next year.)

the pebble bed plan for Thyspunt is experimental but even if it isn't it is required to meet the safety standards for civil nuclear usage.

Pebble bed research is perfectly sound, and SA should continue investing in a rational, sound and safe nuclear programme. What SA should not be allowing is Eskom behaving as land grabbing cowboys who use the power crisis they created to justify their systemic mismanagement. The impact assessments found Thyspunt to be the least suited of the sites presented, Eskom's own planning department admitted when pressed that they wish to secure approval for all 6 sites even if only two plants are constructed.

Not sure what you mean by first saying you think backup electrical supply is not required for pebble bed and then argue that the reactor will be conventional nuclear. The issue isn't what design of reactor is adopted what is at issue is that the design wholly excludes the most fundamental requirement to avoid nuclear catastrophe - a reliable external electricity supply to the plant to ensure cooling and control systems function.

 

[biometrics]

the pebble bed plan for Thyspunt is experimental but even if it isn't it is required to meet the safety standards for civil nuclear usage.

Pebble bed research is perfectly sound, and SA should continue investing in a rational, sound and safe nuclear programme. What SA should not be allowing is Eskom behaving as land grabbing cowboys who use the power crisis they created to justify their systemic mismanagement. The impact assessments found Thyspunt to be the least suited of the sites presented, Eskom's own planning department admitted when pressed that they wish to secure approval for all 6 sites even if only two plants are constructed.

Not sure what you mean by first saying you think backup electrical supply is not required for pebble bed and then argue that the reactor will be conventional nuclear. The issue isn't what design of reactor is adopted what is at issue is that the design wholly excludes the most fundamental requirement to avoid nuclear catastrophe - a reliable external electricity supply to the plant to ensure cooling and control systems function.

I'm saying there is zero chance it will be a pebble bed reactor.

Btw I did not mention anything about backup electricity supply?

Anyway at Koeberg they have backup diesel generators.

 

[Paul Hjul]

I'm saying there is zero chance it will be a pebble bed reactor.

Btw I did not mention anything about backup electricity supply?

Anyway at Koeberg they have backup diesel generators.

Koeberg has at least 3 layers of reserve backup and the ability to meet criteria.

O right saw the issue. mea culpa Hadn't realized in my post I had referred to it as a pebble bed at the start. Misunderstood your "pebble bed, I think not" as referring to the requirement for cooling capability and the associated power backups.

Ja the last time Eskom were in these parts they explicitly argued that they plan on a pebble bed because its safer. I don't think that the end strategy is for a pebble bed but certainly the authorization applications are for pebble bed with the hope of fudging forward later. It is one of the MANY fatal and corrupt flaws in this entire scheme. I won't put it as a "zero chance" but agreed the likely outcome if we don't manage to stop the dickheads is a conventional Russian designed plant coming in at over budget and under delivery. I will double check next week but quite sure the new authorization request process still includes pebble bed.

 

[Paul Hjul]

The RFI:

http://www.energy.gov.za/files/tenders/2020/nuclear-rfi/RFI-Nuclear-New-Build-Power-Procurement-Programme.pdf

Allows a departure towards pressurised water reactor (PWR) in the vain of Koeberg but pretty sure Eskom's documentation for Thys still includes PBMR if for no other reason than that they want to recycle the garbage documentation they previously put out.

 

[biometrics]

Koeberg has at least 3 layers of reserve backup and the ability to meet criteria.

O right saw the issue. mea culpa Hadn't realized in my post I had referred to it as a pebble bed at the start. Misunderstood your "pebble bed, I think not" as referring to the requirement for cooling capability and the associated power backups.

Ja the last time Eskom were in these parts they explicitly argued that they plan on a pebble bed because its safer. I don't think that the end strategy is for a pebble bed but certainly the authorization applications are for pebble bed with the hope of fudging forward later. It is one of the MANY fatal and corrupt flaws in this entire scheme. I won't put it as a "zero chance" but agreed the likely outcome if we don't manage to stop the dickheads is a conventional Russian designed plant coming in at over budget and under delivery. I will double check next week but quite sure the new authorization request process still includes pebble bed.

Any commercial pebble bed reactors in operation in the world. I mean like 1.8 GW worth of it?

 

[Paul Hjul]

Any commercial pebble bed reactors in operation in the world. I mean like 1.8 GW worth of it?

nope absolutely not, but Thyspunt has never realistically been able to be that sort of output. The talk of 4GW is total bullshit - always has been. Eskom's attitude though is that its easier to change plant design and get away with it once concrete is being poured.

Again though if you want to put together a 4GW conventional reactor Koeberg is the place to do it.

 

[biometrics]

nope absolutely not, but Thyspunt has never realistically been able to be that sort of output. The talk of 4GW is total bullshit - always has been. Eskom's attitude though is that its easier to change plant design and get away with it once concrete is being poured.

Again though if you want to put together a 4GW conventional reactor Koeberg is the place to do it.

There is another site near me in Hermanus too, next to Pearly Beach?

Either will require massive development, destruction and upheaval. I don't see it ever happening.

Koeberg is, unfortunately for Melkbos, the obvious choice. I know the area very well and the infrastructure is already there and people are used to it, the disaster management is already in place. Funnily enough the reserve is looked after, full of wild life and alien plants are removed. One benefit is that it limits the city expansion further north which is great.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Ja Bantamsklip is on the chopping block as well
As soon as they steamroll Thyspunt (the most unsuited site of the six -
Thyspunt
Bantamsklip
Schulpfontein
Brazil
Dynefontein
Koeberg) the next lady for a shave is the good folks of Hermanus which is why for the life of me I do not understand why Hermanus residents aren't already on this. properly.

Eskom looks after the reserve they've got an want more to put on their book. Just Koeberg and Dynefontein could provide enough infrastructure for nuclear power in SA while being a heavy nuclear energy mix. There is absolutely no good reason for Bantamsklip or Thyspunt to be handed over to Eskom. Koeberg is the right and obvious choice which is why it isn't what Eskom is pushing for, Dynefontein is the second best choice - so its at the bottom of their list. Of course Koeberg needs to be unbundled entirely from Eskom as it is.

 

[Johnatan56]

There is another site near me in Hermanus too, next to Pearly Beach?

Either will require massive development, destruction and upheaval. I don't see it ever happening.

Koeberg is, unfortunately for Melkbos, the obvious choice. I know the area very well and the infrastructure is already there and people are used to it, the disaster management is already in place. Funnily enough the reserve is looked after, full of wild life and alien plants are removed. One benefit is that it limits the city expansion further north which is great.

Koeberg will not get another nuclear reactor, the city will veto it to insanity, you will get mass protests permanently. It's too close to the city and has been a serious damper on city expansion, the fact that Koeberg was allowed to extend its lifespan is insane.

And @Paul Hjul you better hope they do not build a nuclear reactor at all, current costs even for conventional nuclear are more expensive than pretty much every other energy source while taking decades; going pebble reactor when not a single one has been built in the world seems like a very dumb thing to do considering the already huge debt and power generation constraints, rather let China or the USA trial it, but I doubt they will do more than minor as CSP is just dropping in price substantially as better automation is coming online and we're getting ever closer to a smart grid.

 

[Spizz]

Ja Bantamsklip is on the chopping block as well
As soon as they steamroll Thyspunt (the most unsuited site of the six -
Thyspunt
Bantamsklip
Schulpfontein
Brazil
Dynefontein
Koeberg) the next lady for a shave is the good folks of Hermanus which is why for the life of me I do not understand why Hermanus residents aren't already on this. properly.

What do you mean? I thought Bantamsklip was shelved years ago? There were big local rumblings but I've not heard anything for ages now.

Eskom looks after the reserve they've got an want more to put on their book. Just Koeberg and Dynefontein could provide enough infrastructure for nuclear power in SA while being a heavy nuclear energy mix. There is absolutely no good reason for Bantamsklip or Thyspunt to be handed over to Eskom. Koeberg is the right and obvious choice which is why it isn't what Eskom is pushing for, Dynefontein is the second best choice - so its at the bottom of their list. Of course Koeberg needs to be unbundled entirely from Eskom as it is.

 

[Spizz]

Suppose so.

Where’s that useless @Spizz when we need answers?

Hey it's a work issue, wait until I'm at my desk

But tbf I've no idea about these turbines. Our engines are traditional oil and gas type affairs and our biggest is about 20MW (V50's). Actually most of my work now is to do with large scale Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS) which typically harness and store the PV and wind energy for night time etc. Including some big facilities coming to SA which I can't really chat about

 

[spiderz]

They should be looking into thorium reactors ... they seem to be safer..