Does this forum tolerate racism?

R

rambo919

Guest
It seems certain people don't understand what root causes are.... they keep attatching extra importance to secondary causes for some reason and portraying them as root causes.
 

scudsucker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
1,517
That's a false equivalence imho, also red herring.
In your opinion. In mine, you are actively avoiding an inconvenient fact.
Red herring.
I'm not trying to lead this discussion down the lines of the USA, I am responding to you. If you choose to ignore the example of how history works, then you are welcome to revel in your ignorance.
Now we're getting somewhere.
I grew up in Cape Town, I know how the city is built, your biggest issue with Cape Town are the giant mountains and the giant population explosion. Khayelitsha is there because there is space there and it's cheap, no one else wants it, if you such a huge population increase in a city, the people have to go somewhere. You cannot build west, there is an ocean, north is getting full as well, there are townships there like Dunoon that have insanely expanded during the pandemic, going east you have Brackenfell etc. as well, so you only have south left.
Nice summary. Now will you please explain how Pretoria, Johannesburg and Bloemfontein suffer from exactly the same problem: the poor people having been relocated far from where they earn their wages?

Not so easy, without a mountain to blame.
Now check the time of commute from someone with public transit in Kraaifontein to CBD, and compare it to Khayelitsha to CBD, it's the same issue, and you'll probably neglect the fact that this affects all races. I lived in Table View, going to CBD every day for near 20 years, my commute time at the end was 1.5 hours one way most days, has nothing to do with apartheid spatial planning, just how the city is located and that public transit is still an issue especially if it keeps getting destroyed.
You took 2 or 3 buses and/or taxis, and used several hours for your commute? You spent up to 20% of your income on transport?

It is evident from the results that workers in households from the lowest income quintile were more likely to spend more than 20% of their monthly household income per capita on public transport (98,9%).

What Cape Town needs is another CBD in the south, but what exactly are you going to build there? There aren't enough skilled workers in Cape Town to justify another CBD, Stellenbosh is managing to grow but elsewhere? Lots of grads/skilled work is leaving, new businesses have trouble staying afloat in the current environment, you will not see the townships go away for another few generations.
True, if ever.
It has nothing to do with Apartheid relocating them,
Nonsense, it has literally everything to do with apartheid relocating people away from the best land and the best access to work and amenities.
you can build trains (that were destroyed), buses (that were destroyed) that reduce commute substantially, the issue is that there are just too many unskilled people there, and them moving/having better access to the CBD won't help them.

Btw, Atlantis has its major industrial area, that's why it's there. That's not Apartheid spatial.

I'm going to cheat and use Wikipedia, as a source if you don't mind - nothing controversial:

The suburb of Atlantis was established during the 1970s by the Apartheid government as an industrial centre and a community for the coloured population of Cape Town under the Group Areas Act.

...

Manufacturing activities in Atlantis declined with the termination of the incentive programmes and the defence manufacturing contracts from the mid-1980s. The withdrawal of incentives significantly reduced the attractiveness of the area and while Atlantis has since been through a series of mini economic booms and busts the trend declined in the economy of the area.

a) That is apartheid spacial planning, and b) it also failed, leaving the population of Atlantis with very few jobs without an extremely long commute.


Yes, which is the issue, not the Apartheid era planning.

So you're saying they didn't actually introduce it and just formalized it instead? You'd have to show and example of how that caused a reinforcement of the system, seems more like they just didn't want to deal with it and left the areas to develop on their own.
Like, for example, the Bantustans? A cynical maneuver to "grant independence" over specific tribal areas under apartheid-rubber-stamped so-called tribal authority.
You do know gentrification exists, right? My parents wanted to buy a house in Tamboerskloof back in the 90's, they ended up not doing so, now in 2020 you're looking at tens of millions for a house there with rates that are insane, have a doctor friend there that's going to head into retirement soon, not sure how the two children are going to be able to afford the rates once he passes away, that house will be sold by them since they can't afford to live there anymore.
This is pretty much irrelevant.
Do you think district 6 would be any different? I highly doubt it, just look at woodstock now, it's a trash area, yet its prices are already starting to rise. The other question is, if government had not taken it away, would the jobs there have existed in the first place?
The District 6 dock workers and CBD workers would still have jobs in the docks and the CBD. Not sure where you are going with this.
Btw, you can get to town faster from Langa than you can from e.g. Durbanville.
By public transport? Durbanville now has the MyCiti (thanks to the DA, I guess) but in order to get from Langa to town you need to take a taxi, which includes queuing time.
Will you compensate all the people in Durbanville? Actually you can get to town faster from there than I could from Table View, only thing is since 2010/11 MyCiti means I can get there generally more reliably (which includes Dunoon, Atlantis. Issue is public transit, no matter how you lay the city out).
Before the District Areas Act, many people could easily get to work. After the District Areas Act, these people were placed far away, with expensive public transport to get them to their jobs. This is historic fact. Yes, better public transport would help everyone. But public transport is not free.
Ah, so you admit to inferring racism there, good job.
Inferring racism, good job? I clearly stated in an earlier post that I was stating opinion. This is not the "gotcha" you think it is; I can call you out equally for basing your opinion that the words "Rewind time to 16 March 1992." are not racist. This is a stupid sideline - an example of the red herring you mistakenly diagnosed earlier.
 
Last edited:

scudsucker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
1,517
EDIT:
I am actually going to see what your argument is next, if it keeps going the same/circular, I'll just put you three on ignore, you come off as racist to me, and I've had enough of these discussion on MyBB already, I'm getting tired of it, and it's the main reason most don't bother correcting you, as you don't seem to want to accept that there are other reasons besides Apartheid and that we'd have ended up in a similar spot in terms of spatial anyways, you can keep calling the racism/Apartheid card, but you're only distracting from the actual issue.
Dude. I just wrote a lengthy post explaining that there are several other reasons, as well as apartheid that are at play here.

If you think that that is racist, well, ignore away. No skin off my nose*.









* very white anglo saxon nose, by the way.
 
Last edited:

scudsucker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
1,517
It seems certain people don't understand what root causes are.... they keep attatching extra importance to secondary causes for some reason and portraying them as root causes.
Let me help you rambo.

The secondary cause of your existence is the lack of easy access to abortion under the apartheid government. The root cause... well, lets just say that R50 back got you a lot more back then.
 
Last edited:

Johnatan56

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
1,530
Location
Vienna
You took 2 or 3 buses and/or taxis, and used several hours for your commute?
So you missed the fact that I stated Dunoon etc. using it as well, and yes, 2/3 buses and hours of commute before I owned a car, after owning a car it was 1.5 hours (basically my last year of uni when I got an internship and the choice was no work or car).

Nice summary. Now will you please explain how Pretoria, Johannesburg and Bloemfontein suffer from exactly the same problem: the poor people having been relocated far from where they earn their wages?
Make a map of those towns and compare the expensive parts vs cheap parts and the population explosion. Then also compare number of skilled workers from then vs now, you'll find that skilled labor increased substantially below population increase.
I'm going to cheat and use Wikipedia, as a source if you don't mind - nothing controversial:
Do you think Atlantis would still be there? As an aside, you do know there is a bus from Atlantis to CBD that is ~1.5 hours, right?
1626354251655.png
That's the normal trip, not the express bus, the time can be cut down.
Transit from Atlantis to CBD is possible and generally affordable, month pass is R790 but you can plead poverty (friend did, as a student, think she got it down to R300 or something) and if you're working in CBD/waterfront, you should generally have a job that can afford it. More likely you're working in Bayside or something there though, what work are most of those from Atlantis going to do in CBD? Cleaners, painters, builders maybe? Why would you not pick someone from South side instead, etc.

Atlantis, once Koeberg is removed, will probably start becoming a lot more prosperous, issue is that power station since it limits expansion.
This is pretty much irrelevant.
Completely and utterly relevant.
The District 6 dock workers and CBD workers would still have jobs in the docks and the CBD. Not sure where you are going with this.
What jobs would exist in the CBD? Why would you have made the CBD there if your skilled workers were e.g. in Blouberg?
By public transport? Durbanville now has the MyCiti (thanks to the DA, I guess) but in order to get from Langa to town you need to take a taxi, which includes queuing time.
You know Langa has the train system, right? Pretty sure Apartheid didn't go around burning those down.
Map here btw: https://www.myciti.org.za/docs/categories/815/MyCiTi_Systems_Guide_20-09-2019.pdf
AFAIK the Khayelitsha route is down though, bus stations were all burnt and buses as well, not sure if re-implemented yet.

And no, Durbanville does not have a MyCiti connection.
1626354771141.png
They're reliant on Golden Arrow, same as the south currently mostly is due to trains being destroyed.
Before the District Areas Act, many people could easily get to work. After the District Areas Act, these people were placed far away, with expensive public transport to get them to their jobs. This is historic fact. Yes, better public transport would help everyone. But public transport is not free.
Train system was there as well, nowadays it's something like R360 for a month pass if going the 136-200km zone, think most would be R250 zone at most. That's the current price. You can argue it will take them longer for the trip, but it's something that would have naturally happened.
Inferring racism, good job? I clearly stated in an earlier post that I was stating opinion. This is not the "gotcha" you think it is; I can call you out equally for basing your opinion that the words "Rewind time to 16 March 1992." are not racist. This is a stupid sideline - an example of the red herring you mistakenly diagnosed earlier.
Red herring there you're bringing up again, I called out your starting argument not being based on any fact, just that the person picked a date and you inferred it, which means its your predisposition to be inherently racist.
 

scudsucker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
1,517
... which means its your predisposition to be inherently racist.
This is hilarious; did you even read my posts on this thread?

I am unfortunately not going to be able to reply more than this for a few hours, so if you choose to ignore me for "inherent racism", farewell.
 

scudsucker

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
1,517
So you missed the fact that I stated Dunoon etc. using it as well, and yes, 2/3 buses and hours of commute before I owned a car, after owning a car it was 1.5 hours (basically my last year of uni when I got an internship and the choice was no work or car).
Hey, you got to sympathise with the working classes. The difference being that you did not spend 20% of your internship salary on transport.
Make a map of those towns and compare the expensive parts vs cheap parts and the population explosion. Then also compare number of skilled workers from then vs now, you'll find that skilled labor increased substantially below population increase.
Why? Unless your arguement that social inequality is solely due to population increase, this makes no sense. My arguement, as above, is that both population increase and apartheid planning shoulder a share of the blame; you appear to ignore that the "townships" were established in undesirable areas, poor land, and far from the white areas. Why ignore reality?
Do you think Atlantis would still be there? As an aside, you do know there is a bus from Atlantis to CBD that is ~1.5 hours, right?
I have travelled on a Golden Arrow to Atlantis (or, almost as far, I got off on the corner of the R27 where the bus goes inland) - so yes, I am aware that such a service exists. What's your point?
View attachment 27279
That's the normal trip, not the express bus, the time can be cut down.
Transit from Atlantis to CBD is possible and generally affordable, month pass is R790 but you can plead poverty (friend did, as a student, think she got it down to R300 or something) and if you're working in CBD/waterfront, you should generally have a job that can afford it. More likely you're working in Bayside or something there though, what work are most of those from Atlantis going to do in CBD? Cleaners, painters, builders maybe? Why would you not pick someone from South side instead, etc.
OK, we can talk about Masiphumelele if you prefer. It is also now served by a bus service, it is also far from the city, it is also populated by poor people for whom "R300 or something" is also a significant expense. What changes? Nothing.
Atlantis, once Koeberg is removed, will probably start becoming a lot more prosperous, issue is that power station since it limits expansion.
"probably"
Completely and utterly relevant.
No, sorry.

You know Langa has the train system, right? Pretty sure Apartheid didn't go around burning those down.
And your implication is that... "someone" burnt them down. Who is that "someone"?
Train system was there as well, nowadays it's something like R360 for a month pass if going the 136-200km zone, think most would be R250 zone at most. That's the current price. You can argue it will take them longer for the trip, but it's something that would have naturally happened.
What's your salary? Is it minimum wage - where that R250 would be a huge chunk? Or are you now in a comfortable place where that is your Nando's budget for the weekend? You fail to see the effect on the poor of the spatial differences
Red herring there you're bringing up again, I called out your starting argument not being based on any fact, just that the person picked a date and you inferred it, which means its your predisposition to be inherently racist.

I can equally argue that your defense is inherently racist. Where does that get us? Arguing over the interpretation of 6 words written by a random stranger on a random internet board.
 
Last edited:

SlinkyMike

Active Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2021
Messages
122
wow, looks like this was reported massively for some reason. It is closed now.
Cancel culture I tell you!!
And then moan about how the far right are denied their right to "free speech" when they are deplatformed or have comments removed for being vile.
You cannot normalise sociopathy without an 'other'. Fascists always have an enemy that is at once less than them whilst also being powerful enough to represent grave danger to the word at large.
Now, if you cannot normalise sociopathy then you cannot amass unusable amounts of wealth while depriving others of basic human rights, and we can't have that now can we?
 
Top