Does this forum tolerate racism?

[derp]

I don't see that as racist, just that they are nostalgic? This is more a case of them not wanting to vote ANC in power than they are saying whites are good/blacks are bad, all depending on context.

It's hilarious/saddening that you pretend to believe that.

 

[EADC]

I know, it doesn't really answer your question. Just know that sometimes when ppl refer back to the "old days", it doesn't necessarily have a racist connotation. Sometimes, it only points out the obvious.

On mybb when someone refers to the old days it is always has racist connotations, half of those people revering the old days did not even grow up in that time.

 

[EADC]

I don't see that as racist, just that they are nostalgic? This is more a case of them not wanting to vote ANC in power than they are saying whites are good/blacks are bad, all depending on context.

Then why not go back further like say not to implement apartheid no its a specific point to not end it, that is the point very happy to have Apartheid didn't like that it ended.

 

[scudsucker]

.. that is the point very happy to have Apartheid didn't like that it ended.

That is my reading of the comment as well.

also,

It's a fairly well known fact that law an order (and quality police men) back in the old regime were of a much higher standard than the shit show you have today.

If you were white, of course.

Not so much if you were not.

 

[rambo919]

The rioters were black then, the rioters are black now....

Sure, let's blame racism for everything, bitch and whine about how terrible it is, not actually doing anything constructive...... rather than actually addressing the real root causes in ways which will prevent this from occurring again.

People who see racism as the prime evil and only focus on that are essentially cowards hiding from reality and usually scapegoating an entire race..... funny that.

 

[EADC]

The rioters were black then, the rioters are black now....

Sure, let's blame racism for everything, bitch and whine about how terrible it is, not actually doing anything constructive...... rather than actually addressing the real root causes in ways which will prevent this from occurring again.

People who see racism as the prime evil and only focus on that are essentially cowards hiding from reality and usually scapegoating an entire race..... funny that.

You talk about real root causes yet can't acknowledge the damage apartheid did in being one of the root causes then people want to go back the old days? Get fucked you absolute piece of shit.

 

[Johnatan56]

It's hilarious/saddening that you pretend to believe that.

On mybb when someone refers to the old days it is always has racist connotations, half of those people revering the old days did not even grow up in that time.

Then why not go back further like say not to implement apartheid no its a specific point to not end it, that is the point very happy to have Apartheid didn't like that it ended.

You're reading something different into it, why don't you ask them what they meant by it? You seem to be predisposed to see racism there, rather than it being that they'd rather not want what is currently happening to the country.

You talk about real root causes yet can't acknowledge the damage apartheid did in being one of the root causes then people want to go back the old days? Get fucked you absolute piece of shit.

Apartheid is not one of the root causes in the current protest, unless you mean that it was due to putting ANC in power.
After about 30 years, you can't really blame the previous regime, a majority of those stealing didn't really know what Apartheid was.

 

[scudsucker]

Apartheid is not one of the root causes in the current protest, unless you mean that it was due to putting ANC in power.

Apartheid cemented the social and economic inequalities that had existed before, and codified them into law. The apartheid government also actively encouraged tribalism via "divide and conquer" tactics. Some blame for the current protest can be laid on on them for this.

The ANC, unfortunately, never resolved the divided communities; and Zuma actively worked to perpetuate tribalism. Most of the blame can be laid on the ANC for this.

Of course, the fact that unemployment, hunger and desperation has sharply increased under the current COVID situation, and the inept handling of the crisis as it unfolded (I was impressed at the beginning; but no lessons were learned as it dragged on) means that for many people, any excuse to loot and take "their" share is seen as a reasonable action. That fault too, lies with the ANC.

Society is complex; you cannot just hand-wave away the devastating social and economic effects of apartheid - and while "a majority of those stealing" never experienced apartheid, they are experiencing its legacy, in areas such as social inequality, and urban planning. The ANC has failed to resolve this legacy, and have not done nearly enough to attempt to do so, but the pre-apartheid and apartheid societal differences are not going to be overcome in just 35 years. Look to the USA, where they are still struggling with the events of 1861-1865.

 

[greg0205]

I don't see that as racist, just that they are nostalgic? This is more a case of them not wanting to vote ANC in power than they are saying whites are good/blacks are bad, all depending on context.

"Economic anxiety" was the fig leaf MAGA used to cover this s**t right here.

Here's the nostalgia...

Here's a pick of Elizabeth Eckford. Elizabeth was one of nine black kids enrolled in Little Rock High right after after desegregation...

When MAGA talk about making America great again, then mean white America *before* desegregation. They're the Karens in the photo

When locals reference the referendum like that, they mean white South Africa *before* the end of apartheid. They're our version of the Karens in that photo of Elizabeth.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[EADC]

You're reading something different into it, why don't you ask them what they meant by it? You seem to be predisposed to see racism there, rather than it being that they'd rather not want what is currently happening to the country.

Apartheid is not one of the root causes in the current protest, unless you mean that it was due to putting ANC in power.
After about 30 years, you can't really blame the previous regime, a majority of those stealing didn't really know what Apartheid was.

@scudsucker has already more eloquently than I could explained it.

 

[Johnatan56]

Apartheid cemented the social and economic inequalities that had existed before, and codified them into law. The apartheid government also actively encouraged tribalism via "divide and conquer" tactics. Some blame for the current protest can be laid on on them for this.

Yeah, no, a root cause after 2 generations doesn't really work, it will keep being the excuse forever.

The ANC, unfortunately, never resolved the divided communities; and Zuma actively worked to perpetuate tribalism. Most of the blame can be laid on the ANC for this.

Of course, the fact that unemployment, hunger and desperation has sharply increased under the current COVID situation, and the inept handling of the crisis as it unfolded (I was impressed at the beginning; but no lessons were learned as it dragged on) means that for many people, any excuse to loot and take "their" share is seen as a reasonable action. That fault too, lies with the ANC.

Society is complex; you cannot just hand-wave away the devastating social and economic effects of apartheid - and while "a majority of those stealing" never experienced apartheid, they are experiencing its legacy, in areas such as social inequality, and urban planning. The ANC has failed to resolve this legacy, and have not done nearly enough to attempt to do so, but the pre-apartheid and apartheid societal differences are not going to be overcome in just 35 years. Look to the USA, where they are still struggling with the events of 1861-1865.

The US is not still struggling from the civil war, there are still people that want to go back to those days, but you're talking about a minority that gets a lot of TV time.

In regards to spatial planning issues, etc., you can't really blame that on Apartheid for a long while now, it's an issue you get if you go from ~30m people to ~60m in 30 years. A lot of the societal issues can be blamed on the huge increase in population, and I am unsure of how you're going to handle that in ~10 years, currently close to 35% or so of the population is <18, half is <30.

Infographic: South Africa's population and age structure from 1960 to 2016 - South Africa Gateway

There's a lot of talk of South Africa's population being dominated by the youth. But we're less youthful than we have been for decades. The end of apartheid, better healthcare, widespread social welfare and greater economic opportunities all mean South Africans are now able to live longer lives.

southafrica-info.com

You can keep blaming Apartheid forever, but you're not addressing the actual underlying issue, Apartheid never caused tribalism, they allowed it to continue, Apartheid moved people around, but you can't say that the spatial issue with the number of people being added to it is Apartheids fault, and you can't say the constant worsening of infrastructure and education is Apartheid's fault.

At one point you need to move past that.

And the original comment was that the person was posting about was the referendum, they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC, since for most the circumstances now are worse than they were then, even for black people.

 

[EADC]

And the original comment was that the person was posting about was the referendum, they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC, since for most the circumstances now are worse than they were then, even for black people.

What exactly would just not voting ANC solve South Africa would still be bankrupt and we would still have a huge problem with poverty.

I do not believe for a second that is the reason it is naïve to think that.

 

[Johnatan56]

What exactly would just not voting ANC solve South Africa would still be bankrupt and we would still have a huge problem with poverty.

I do not believe for a second that is the reason it is naïve to think that.

I think it is naive to think that the country would be bankrupt, it instead would probably have resulted in less social allowances, government employees, and slightly better management of SOE's, which would mean less public expenditure. That's currently one of the largest issues plaguing South Africa. If that didn't happen, there would be a lot more money to go around, South Africa actually had a pretty decent tax base, it shouldn't have had issues funding itself.

And you're playing the whatif game as well, the person who posted on MyBB believes otherwise, that the ANC is the issue, you're the one bringing race into the discussion.

 

[EADC]

I think it is naive to think that the country would be bankrupt, it instead would probably have resulted in less social allowances, government employees, and slightly better management of SOE's, which would mean less public expenditure. That's currently one of the largest issues plaguing South Africa. If that didn't happen, there would be a lot more money to go around, South Africa actually had a pretty decent tax base, it shouldn't have had issues funding itself.

And you're playing the whatif game as well, the person who posted on MyBB believes otherwise, that the ANC is the issue, you're the one bringing race into the discussion.

Edit
I have deleted this because I am not going to expend any more energy on a post from another forum, its pointless.

 

[rambo919]

You talk about real root causes yet can't acknowledge the damage apartheid did in being one of the root causes then people want to go back the old days?

It is a root cause but not even close to being the biggest. These problems existed both before the union and before apartheid..... apartheid cannot create a problem that pre-exists it.

Get fucked you absolute piece of shit.

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

 

[rambo919]

I will just leave this here

A world without electricity? - Thought Leader

The prospect of living in a ‘world without electricity’ in South Africa has become a spectre that looms ever-larger by the day, as a mismanaged, looted-to-the-bone Eskom struggles to keep the ‘lights on’ — a misleading metaphor, insofar as it stands for the entire electricity-based economy of...

thoughtleader.co.za

 

[scudsucker]

Yeah, no, a root cause after 2 generations doesn't really work, it will keep being the excuse forever.

It will always be a root cause; that is how history works. The 1066 invasion of England by the Normans eventually led to the Magna Carta in 1215, which in turn led to the current US Constitution.

A "root cause" may become less and less of an "excuse" and more of a historical fact over time, but it remains a contributing factor.

The US is not still struggling from the civil war, there are still people that want to go back to those days, but you're talking about a minority that gets a lot of TV time.

The US is still struggling with the legacy of slavery and the massive impact of the civil war on the southern states. The turmoil in the south following their defeat and the consequent Jim Crow laws continues into modern times. While all long-running political issues eventually are likely to be "hijacked" by movements only possibly tangentially aligned to the original, the "root cause" that spurred that political issue remains a historic fact.

In regards to spatial planning issues, etc., you can't really blame that on Apartheid for a long while now, it's an issue you get if you go from ~30m people to ~60m in 30 years.

Tell that to the people of Atlantis, the people of Delft, of Khaylitsha - the people who live in the poorest areas, who pay the highest percentage of their income (when compared to the national average) on transport, just so that they can earn that meager income. Apartheid spatial planning fucked up and continues to fuck up the earning ability of the poor.

A lot of the societal issues can be blamed on the huge increase in population, and I am unsure of how you're going to handle that in ~10 years, currently close to 35% or so of the population is <18, half is <30.

Granted, our population is doing itself no favours by increasing at this rate, and the limit on living space in the cities is not helping.

You can keep blaming Apartheid forever, but you're not addressing the actual underlying issue, Apartheid never caused tribalism, they allowed it to continue.

Apartheid encouraged tribalism to continue. As I said above, the elements of inequality already existed; Apartheid took those elements made a legal structure that reinforced and promoted inequality.

Apartheid moved people around, but you can't say that the spatial issue with the number of people being added to it is Apartheids fault

If you - a young man, aged 20ish, so never saw apartheid - are born into a shack in Bonteheuwel, into which your parents or grandparents were forcibly removed from District 6 - how do you propose you purchase land at the time when you get your own family? It is, of course possible, to rise above the difficulties and the additional costs of just getting to and from work, but that apartheid era spatial planning is affecting you, right now. It adds complexity and cost to an already difficult and expensive effort.

and you can't say the constant worsening of infrastructure and education is Apartheid's fault.

I do not say this.

At one point you need to move past that.

And the original comment was that the person was posting about was the referendum, they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC, since for most the circumstances now are worse than they were then, even for black people.

This is not what they said. They said:

Rewind time to 16 March 1992.

You ask us not to infer racism from that statement, but you are suggesting that they meant "they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC" from the same small piece of evidence.

My equally valid inference is that they meant "they really do want apartheid back, because it was bloody lekker for the wit ou".

 

[scudsucker]

You kiss your mother with that mouth?

Mostly your mother, rambo, for which she gets an extra R50.

 

[greg0205]

It will always be a root cause; that is how history works. The 1066 invasion of England by the Normans eventually led to the Magna Carta in 1215, which in turn led to the current US Constitution.

A "root cause" may become less and less of an "excuse" and more of a historical fact over time, but it remains a contributing factor.

The US is still struggling with the legacy of slavery and the massive impact of the civil war on the southern states. The turmoil in the south following their defeat and the consequent Jim Crow laws continues into modern times. While all long-running political issues eventually are likely to be "hijacked" by movements only possibly tangentially aligned to the original, the "root cause" that spurred that political issue remains a historic fact.

Tell that to the people of Atlantis, the people of Delft, of Khaylitsha - the people who live in the poorest areas, who pay the highest percentage of their income (when compared to the national average) on transport, just so that they can earn that meager income. Apartheid spatial planning fucked up and continues to fuck up the earning ability of the poor.


Granted, our population is doing itself no favours by increasing at this rate, and the limit on living space in the cities is not helping.


Apartheid encouraged tribalism to continue. As I said above, the elements of inequality already existed; Apartheid took those elements made a legal structure that reinforced and promoted inequality.

If you - a young man, aged 20ish, so never saw apartheid - are born into a shack in Bonteheuwel, into which your parents or grandparents were forcibly removed from District 6 - how do you propose you purchase land at the time when you get your own family? It is, of course possible, to rise above the difficulties and the additional costs of just getting to and from work, but that apartheid era spatial planning is affecting you, right now. It adds complexity and cost to an already difficult and expensive effort.

I do not say this.

This is not what they said. They said:


You ask us not to infer racism from that statement, but you are suggesting that they meant "they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC" from the same small piece of evidence.

My equally valid inference is that they meant "they really do want apartheid back, because it was bloody lekker for the wit ou".

All

Of

This

 

[Johnatan56]

It will always be a root cause; that is how history works. The 1066 invasion of England by the Normans eventually led to the Magna Carta in 1215, which in turn led to the current US Constitution.

A "root cause" may become less and less of an "excuse" and more of a historical fact over time, but it remains a contributing factor.

That's a false equivalence imho, also red herring.

The US is still struggling with the legacy of slavery and the massive impact of the civil war on the southern states. The turmoil in the south following their defeat and the consequent Jim Crow laws continues into modern times. While all long-running political issues eventually are likely to be "hijacked" by movements only possibly tangentially aligned to the original, the "root cause" that spurred that political issue remains a historic fact.

Red herring.

Tell that to the people of Atlantis, the people of Delft, of Khaylitsha - the people who live in the poorest areas, who pay the highest percentage of their income (when compared to the national average) on transport, just so that they can earn that meager income. Apartheid spatial planning fucked up and continues to fuck up the earning ability of the poor.

Now we're getting somewhere.
I grew up in Cape Town, I know how the city is built, your biggest issue with Cape Town are the giant mountains and the giant population explosion. Khayelitsha is there because there is space there and it's cheap, no one else wants it, if you such a huge population increase in a city, the people have to go somewhere. You cannot build west, there is an ocean, north is getting full as well, there are townships there like Dunoon that have insanely expanded during the pandemic, going east you have Brackenfell etc. as well, so you only have south left.

Now check the time of commute from someone with public transit in Kraaifontein to CBD, and compare it to Khayelitsha to CBD, it's the same issue, and you'll probably neglect the fact that this affects all races. I lived in Table View, going to CBD every day for near 20 years, my commute time at the end was 1.5 hours one way most days, has nothing to do with apartheid spatial planning, just how the city is located and that public transit is still an issue especially if it keeps getting destroyed.

What Cape Town needs is another CBD in the south, but what exactly are you going to build there? There aren't enough skilled workers in Cape Town to justify another CBD, Stellenbosh is managing to grow but elsewhere? Lots of grads/skilled work is leaving, new businesses have trouble staying afloat in the current environment, you will not see the townships go away for another few generations. It has nothing to do with Apartheid relocating them, you can build trains (that were destroyed), buses (that were destroyed) that reduce commute substantially, the issue is that there are just too many unskilled people there, and them moving/having better access to the CBD won't help them.

Btw, Atlantis has its major industrial area, that's why it's there. That's not Apartheid spatial.

Granted, our population is doing itself no favours by increasing at this rate, and the limit on living space in the cities is not helping.

Yes, which is the issue, not the Apartheid era planning.

Apartheid encouraged tribalism to continue. As I said above, the elements of inequality already existed; Apartheid took those elements made a legal structure that reinforced and promoted inequality.

So you're saying they didn't actually introduce it and just formalized it instead? You'd have to show and example of how that caused a reinforcement of the system, seems more like they just didn't want to deal with it and left the areas to develop on their own. 30 years later that it's still an issue, that the state substantially increased the number of recognized kings and increased their power and income has nothing to do with Apartheid.

If you - a young man, aged 20ish, so never saw apartheid - are born into a shack in Bonteheuwel, into which your parents or grandparents were forcibly removed from District 6 - how do you propose you purchase land at the time when you get your own family? It is, of course possible, to rise above the difficulties and the additional costs of just getting to and from work, but that apartheid era spatial planning is affecting you, right now. It adds complexity and cost to an already difficult and expensive effort.

You do know gentrification exists, right? My parents wanted to buy a house in Tamboerskloof back in the 90's, they ended up not doing so, now in 2020 you're looking at tens of millions for a house there with rates that are insane, have a doctor friend there that's going to head into retirement soon, not sure how the two children are going to be able to afford the rates once he passes away, that house will be sold by them since they can't afford to live there anymore.

Do you think district 6 would be any different? I highly doubt it, just look at woodstock now, it's a trash area, yet its prices are already starting to rise. The other question is, if government had not taken it away, would the jobs there have existed in the first place?

Btw, you can get to town faster from Langa than you can from e.g. Durbanville. Will you compensate all the people in Durbanville? Actually you can get to town faster from there than I could from Table View, only thing is since 2010/11 MyCiti means I can get there generally more reliably (which includes Dunoon, Atlantis. Issue is public transit, no matter how you lay the city out).

I do not say this.

This is not what they said. They said:


You ask us not to infer racism from that statement, but you are suggesting that they meant "they didn't say they want Apartheid back, they said they would probably not have voted ANC" from the same small piece of evidence.

My equally valid inference is that they meant "they really do want apartheid back, because it was bloody lekker for the wit ou".

Ah, so you admit to inferring racism there, good job.

EDIT:
I am actually going to see what your argument is next, if it keeps going the same/circular, I'll just put you three on ignore, you come off as racist to me, and I've had enough of these discussion on MyBB already, I'm getting tired of it, and it's the main reason most don't bother correcting you, as you don't seem to want to accept that there are other reasons besides Apartheid and that we'd have ended up in a similar spot in terms of spatial anyways, you can keep calling the racism/Apartheid card, but you're only distracting from the actual issue.